Lunch With Sandy
Welcome to the "Lunch With Sandy" podcast, where we serve up candid conversations seasoned with humor and insight. Join us as we delve into much-needed discussions, sprinkled with our unique sense of humor. On the menu, you'll find a variety of topics, from conflict resolution to navigating tricky questions with grace. We also explore current events, sharing our perspectives on the everyday trials and triumphs. So pull up a chair, grab a plate, and enjoy the feast of conversation.
Lunch With Sandy
Equity and Equality in Relationships
Ever found yourself pondering the secret sauce that makes relationships tick? Well, Sandy and I invite you on a journey to discover just that. With laughter, love, and a dash of wisdom from our own marriage, we tackle the intricate dance between equity and equality in partnerships. We've all heard that relationships should be 50-50, but what happens when life throws a curveball that demands a different approach? Through laughter and candid stories, we share how embracing each partner's unique strengths and challenges can lead to a more harmonious and supportive bond.
Who knew that our playful pup Jax could teach us a thing or two about fairness in love? His antics bring to light the essence of today's discussion, as we navigate the differences between equal and equitable treatment within our marriage. From who handles the finances to the division of household chores, we dissect the importance of customizing roles to suit each other’s needs, rather than sticking to a rigid formula. This episode will guide you through the necessary steps of collaboration, communication, and mutual respect that are vital in ensuring both partners feel valued and heard.
Wrapping up, we reflect on the delicate balance of power when it comes to one partner earning the bacon while the other manages the home front. Our chat goes beyond the mundane tasks and zeroes in on the crucial role of empathy and understanding in acknowledging each person's contribution to the relationship, monetary or not. By the end of our heart-to-heart, you'll be equipped with the insights needed to craft a partnership where both you and your beloved can flourish. So, pull up a chair, lend us your ears, and let's redefine what it means to be just and loving companions.
In a relationship, when is honesty not the best policy? How do you balance what you want versus what you need, and is there something you need to say to your spouse but can't find the right way to say it? If so, then you're in the right place. This is the Lunch with Sandy podcast. With nearly 20 years of marriage under their belts, Terrance and Sandy Jackson discuss a range of topics, provide valuable insights on relationships and talk about the conversations married couples need to have. So what does lunch have to do with all of this? Well, it's a metaphor for how these conversations originally started. Speaking of conversations, let's get one going. Here's your hosts, Terrance and Sandy.
Terrance:Welcome to another episode of the Lunch with Sandy podcast, where we delve into various topics and offer insights from the perspective of a married couple. I'm Terrance.
Sandy:And I'm Sandy.
Terrance:And today we will be discussing equality versus equity in the context of a relationship. But before we dive into that, please remember to follow the Lunch with Sandy podcast on your favorite podcasting app. Also, be sure to follow the show on all social media platforms. At Lunch with Sandy. Speaking of Sandy, she's over there petting Jax. Jax is wondering what happened to his podcast, the Rough Life, which never got off the ground.
Sandy:What's going on in your head today, Sandy? That?
Terrance:Jax is so needy. Jax is very needy Jax. He's been following me around all morning and then at some point he always just decides you know what? I'm going to lay down at the bottom of the stairs and pretend like nobody cares about me until somebody else wakes up At the bottom of the stairs and pretend like nobody cares about me until somebody else wakes up.
Sandy:That's probably exactly what happened, because I came down the stairs and there he was wagging his tail.
Terrance:Every morning I have to tell him all right, jax, I'm not petting you, lay down somewhere, he'll come sit right between my legs, sit there and just lean up on me and take his head and put it on my hand.
Sandy:I'm like jacks, you got to go lay down somewhere. He's looking at you, but that's exactly what he's doing. He keeps putting his head on my lap like I'm not giving him any attention jacks is saying there's no equity in this relationship that we actually have here yeah, he's right, he doesn't give me the love I give him.
Terrance:Well this is why we're going to be talking about equity versus equality in the context of relationship. And let me tell you how all of this started. I was at work the other day and we were having a conversation about how some things are standard, so they're equal across the board for everyone and I made this point. I said listen. I said the challenge is, everyone here is talking about equality. And I said equality looks at everyone and says okay, well, I'm going to give you the same treatment and I said, in some cases we got to talk about equity and it got me to thinking.
Terrance:You know, in most relationships, I think it's fair that the goal is everyone wants a balanced dynamic where both parties contribute to the relationship equally, would you agree? Most of the time, however, though, it's not as straightforward as it seems. I want to talk today about how differences can affect the way that we relate to one another, and in that sense, it could be a challenge to the notion of fairness or equality. So I just want to touch on what it means to be in a relationship that is equitable. But before we do that, let's define the difference between equality and equity as it pertains to a relationship, right? Ok, what does equality mean to you in the context of a relationship?
Sandy:And I hope you read these notes, because now I'm putting you on blast. Now you threw me off.
Terrance:That's OK.
Sandy:What was the question?
Terrance:Man, I got to keep you on your feet. What does equality?
Sandy:mean to you in the context of a relationship. It means that each party is putting in the same level of effort.
Terrance:I'll accept that.
Sandy:As the other.
Terrance:And that's not it. I love how you had the pause there as the other.
Sandy:And decision making. It's a 50-50.
Terrance:Is this question making you nervous?
Sandy:No, why.
Terrance:Because you keep bopping your leg, you get that nervous twitch going on again.
Sandy:It's not a nervous switch. I always bop in my leg.
Terrance:I just don't know how to sit still, it's very distracting when I see a slipper coming out of the side of my eye just going up and down, up and down.
Sandy:I'll switch feet. How's that Well?
Terrance:don't kick the table, all right. So I'll accept that definition, not that it's your definition anyway.
Announcer:Thank you for your acceptance.
Terrance:So where do you think equity differs? In the context, in that same context, in that same context.
Sandy:So when I'm thinking of relationships, I'm thinking equity to me is more like I don't need to make a decision on this, you go ahead and take it. That to me is equity. I guess that works in a sense. So so it's like we don't have to be equal like it's. It's a situation where it doesn't need to be 50 50 and debate it out right and come to a mutual.
Terrance:It sounds like you're saying I got equity built up. Like you know, I've been paying on this mortgage or this relationship.
Sandy:Well, no, it's like OK, we have to buy a new TV. Go ahead and take this one, because you know technology is more your strength. There you go. That's what I was looking for All right.
Terrance:So when, when I talk about equality, there are a couple of things that come to mind, a couple of things that I think that you know many people focus on, couple things that come to mind, a couple things that I think that you know many people focus on, and I think I'm going to name those three things and then I'm going to get to just a very brief definition of what I think those things are right. The first thing that comes to mind is fair treatment. The second thing that comes to mind is uniformity in some sense, and then, lastly, you know, from an approach perspective, being standard, right, when we talk about fair treatment, it's that notion that everyone's treated the same, regardless of circumstance or need, and that's pretty much the definition of, you know, fairness. When we talk about uniformity, it's, you know, basically, uniformity or sameness in distribution. When we talk about resources, responsibilities and opportunities, and then that last one, you know, the standard approach is basically everyone starts from the same baseline and receives the same treatment and receives the same treatment.
Terrance:So, if I had to think about an example and I'm going to use this example because currently we have some people who might be vertically challenged in this house. So an example of that context of equality if I were to say, okay, well, everyone gets a one foot stool so they can reach the top cabinet In the top shelf, in the cabinet in the kitchen, that's essentially saying, ok, well, that's being equal, everyone's being treated equal. There is the same baseline, the approach is the same, the treatment is the same. While equality is essentially, you know, that basic form of fairness, it doesn't always lead to an equitable outcome because people have different backgrounds, needs and circumstances. So when, when, when I talk about equity, I think of the following right, so when we talk about that, we mentioned fanish fairness and you know that equality piece.
Terrance:So equity, I would say we talk about fairness based on need, and then I'm going to do the same thing as I did for the first three in equality I'm going to define these and then I'll go back to give more insight as to what I mean. We talk about fairness based on need, we talk about customization, we talk about addressing disparities and we talk about emphasis on justice, right? Yep, so fairness based on need, it focuses on distributing those resources, opportunities and that same stuff we talked about in being equality, you know, like support and things like that in a way that's fair, based on individual circumstances, needs and abilities.
Terrance:So it's not a situation where it's OK, well, one solution fits everybody, right, right, one solution fits everybody Right, right Customization it basically looks at tailoring whatever it is that you need to do, whether it's support resources to address specific inequalities or barriers that individuals face Now.
Terrance:Like my shortness. We're going to get to your vertical, the challenge that you face vertically right when we talk about addressing disparities, that's, recognizing that different individuals or groups may require different levels of support or accommodations to achieve the same outcomes that someone else may be able to achieve without that same level of support. And then, lastly, you know, I mentioned emphasis on justice. So when we talk about being equitable, we prioritize being fair and being just, even if it means deviating from you know, that equal distribution in favor of addressing underlying inequalities. So let me go back to the same, To the same example that I used earlier when I was talking about the top shelf. And I was talking about the top shelf. So if I wanted to be equitable, what I would do then? What I would do is I'd say, okay, well, based on your height, I'm going to customize a stool for you to use so you actually can reach that top shelf in that cabinet, regardless of the fact that you're four foot two.
Sandy:And I'm not saying you're four foot two. I know you were going to come at me with that. Definitely not at least four foot two. But yeah, or although I just like it better where I just call you to come get whatever I need.
Terrance:I mean, I might not always be around so oftentimes you hear people talk about equality and equity and it's not in the context of a relationship, it's in whether you're talking about jobs, whether you're talking about pay. Well, jobs and pay, you know, I guess you can separate those, but housing and things like that when you speak about actually, I don't often hear people speak about having equity in a relationship, but when you talk about it, that means that you have to be able to recognize each other's needs, strengths, challenges and weaknesses needs, strengths, challenges and weaknesses because that is the only way then you can begin to actually address what those differences are, so you can make a relationship truly equitable. So why do you think it is that you don't hear people talk about that in the context of a relationship?
Sandy:I don't think people actually try to define the differences. But you know, I I feel like a lot of complaints come from I do this and you don't right, so, um, so they're always looking for like that type of equality because they want their partner to.
Terrance:You know, you just said the word they want their partner to you know, you just said the word they want their partner to be equal Right, yeah, so they don't really think about okay, yeah, I might do this, but you do that.
Announcer:Yeah.
Sandy:Right, and instead of rotating responsibilities, you both see the equity in both of the things that you do and to that it's similar, so you don't need to do this. So I don't know. For example, I'm trying to think of something within the house. Oh okay, so I do the banking, right, yeah?
Terrance:Except for the business account. But yes, yeah, we got to put more money in there by the house. Oh, okay, so I do the banking right? Yeah, except for the business account. But yes, yeah, we got to put more money in there, by the way, funds are running low.
Sandy:So, anyhow, you know I do the majority of the banking and that's just because you know it comes easy to me.
Terrance:It's not to say it doesn't come easy to me.
Sandy:No, I know, I just don't like it yeah and hence I just do it and, but yet you will do other things, like around the house and things of that nature, you know. So it's it's not like we need to flip-flop who does and who pays the bills and does the banking this?
Terrance:month versus next month, because you know to me the equity is offset by other things that you do yeah, and I think that I think the challenge for some people and I mean it could be a challenge for us also you know, we never had conversations about that yeah, and it's just one of those things where we just accept it as as it is and we never really look at okay, well, do we need to play off, not play off one another? Do we need to meet each other in different spaces to make things equitable? Equitable, and again, we haven't had that issue. I just think that a lot of people don't think about equity when they talk about relationship, not to say that they don't have it. I don't think that there's a lot of conversations and so the question becomes okay, well, we've now defined the difference between equality and equity, how do you actually reach that in an actual relationship?
Sandy:how do you actually reach that in an actual relationship? So that's kind of tough, because I feel like equality becomes more of an issue if both of you don't like what it is. Like. That you know, I'm thinking specifically, for you know things that you both have to do. You know in the relationship, things that you both have to do. You know in the relationship. I think equality becomes an issue when neither one of you likes to do it. Well, you know what. So, say, neither one of us like to do banking, who's gonna do the banking? I feel like at that point, jacks right. It becomes more of like oh well, we need to be equal in this respect, because I don't like doing it, you don't like doing it, and so you know that equity piece of it is kind of out the window.
Terrance:Yeah. So you know, and this is where I think we've beaten this home in almost every episode that we've had this is where communication and collaboration comes into effect, and the reason why I say that is you know, again, I don't think that many people have the discussion, but you have to have the discussion Right, because we always talk about, everyone talks about being equal, and I'm talking about in partnerships, with relationships I want to keep this to the context of a relationship, but I don't think we have enough conversations about what our different needs are or our different abilities. I mean, again, we talk about the banking. That's something you do. You have that ability.
Terrance:It's not to say that I couldn't develop that ability or don't necessarily have that ability, but that is an area where you know you're off and you're in, you're running with that. If it's a situation where we both don't want to do something, or if you're, it's a situation where two people don't want to do something, the question becomes okay, well, is there something within that person that is keeping them from being able to perform whatever that responsibility is for one reason or another, and is it just ah, you know, I don't like doing it, or is it something within them, that is, keeping them or, you know, again stopping them from being able to grab onto that and do it without having some sort of issue internally with it.
Sandy:Yeah Well, it makes me think of cooking. I enjoy cooking, but I hate cooking at the same time. You hate?
Terrance:it.
Sandy:Well, what I hate is coming up with what I want to cook.
Terrance:Yeah, I see.
Sandy:And sometimes I feel like I just don't have enough time to cook the things I do want to cook. So it ends up becoming where I struggle and I start disliking it to some degree because you know you being too go ahead, struggle and I start disliking it to some degree because you know one is the time and then two it's having to like, think about it and prepare for it.
Terrance:I think I'm gonna solve your problem. Uh-huh, stop trying to have bougie dishes, just have some plain dishes listen, you might like having the same thing over and over me.
Sandy:I need a little bit more variety.
Terrance:Consistency is the key to life. No, so I think that you know we talked about responsibilities and you're talking about responsibilities now. I think that when two people are talking, or if two people are having the discussion about being equal and being equitable, when they start talking about shared responsibilities, they should be taking into consideration what's equitable for each person. Not being equal, because, again, when we talk about equity, we're talking about making sure that we recognize another person's needs, challenges and obstacles, so we can make things equitable from the perspective of we may not be doing the same amount of things, right.
Sandy:Yeah.
Terrance:But we're putting ourselves in a position so everything is equitable and that's going to lead us to a more pleasant shared experience when we talk about being in that actual relationship.
Sandy:Yeah, and so it would be like I don't know if I'm thinking of like the cooking perspective. It's like equitable means that you know you cook three days a week, I cook three days a week. We do take out one day a week and your level of meals has to be the same.
Terrance:Par, that's not, that's not being equitable, because you're only no because you're only thinking about yourself. You're not thinking about the needs and recognizing needs of the other person I thought that was the equity no, we mean that was I mean yeah so I was thinking about equality.
Sandy:So equality is like I cook three days, you cook three days, take out one day and the level of our meals are identical so like we can't do.
Terrance:I'm trying to think of something like hot dogs one night and I've never made you hot no I know, I'm just saying for this example and I'm making like a beef wellington, neither one do we eat, but other than that you know, see, and this is why you have to have conversations, because I could say my definition of equality would be I cook two days a week, you cook two days a week, we order out one day a week and the rest you're on your own. I think a big part of it comes down to this. I think recognizing the challenges and I don't want to say challenges, but the other response you have to recognize that each person is different, and that's where the equity piece comes in, because you know, from an equality standpoint you can say things aren't equal, but from an equity standpoint things could be very equitable because that individual person may have different needs or challenges that you need to recognize.
Sandy:That's what I was going to bring up right. So, like thinking about that cooking dinner situation, you know what happened. It doesn't leave room, like you said, for customization. What happens? If I want to go out one night, then I'm supposed to be partying too much?
Terrance:go ahead.
Sandy:That's not true you just can't go on to dinner with me as much as I want to. Um. So like what, if I want to go out one night, you know, and it's my night to cook? What does that mean? Does that mean I have to cook you a meal before I?
Terrance:go out.
Sandy:It should, but I'm flexible so that doesn't have to happen right, but that's kind of like the equity, like oh, the equity is more like oh well, you know, let's, let's switch days or something like that, or don't worry about it. You know, I, I got it covered. Yeah, go ahead. And you know, enjoy your meal out.
Terrance:Yeah, the other thing that you know needs to be considered when you're talking about truly having a equal and equitable relationship is the power dynamics, and we've had a conversation in the past about power and whether or not a person who makes more money, you know but and power dynamics, you know they influence the distribution of resources and responsibilities in a relationship. So can you think of an unequal power dynamic that can impact the ability to achieve equality and equity in a relationship? I just gave you one too. I gave you a layup.
Sandy:Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. I'm thinking even more from the perspective of, like, a stay-at-home parent where the other parent works, you know. So that stay-at-home parent, their job, is being home, right, but then you know that parent who is out of the house working, could come home and be like, well, what did you do all day?
Sandy:like you know, do all day not to say that that would happen, but it's a possibility right, and you know the stay-at-home parents like, well, I've been hurting these kids all day and then trying to make the house look reasonably clean before they come home. You know like the job is the children, but yet I feel like sometimes that might be like overlooked as a job because there's no monetary yeah.
Terrance:And this is why, that's a good point and this is why the three points that we've actually mentioned before all play together. This is why you got to have conversations, because if the decision is made that one person is going to be a stay at home parent and take care of the household and the other person is going to go out into the workforce, ok, well, you know you are sharing responsibilities, because if that person is not taking care of the household, then who is that person? That person's not going out into the workforce, who is? The conversation needs to happen. And then, when you talk about, okay, well, if that's the decision that you make, is it equitable?
Terrance:You have to look at each individual and recognize where they are, who they are, what their needs are and how you can actually support one another. Recognize where they are, who they are, what their needs are and how you can actually support one another. Because then, if it is, we know that that power dynamic is going to exist. But if you've had these conversations, if you talked about these shared responsibilities and you have assessed and recognized where each other are, each person is, then the power dynamic shouldn't impact your ability to be equal and equitable. But if you haven't had those conversations. If you haven't, you know, gone over the responsibilities and shared responsibilities, then that could be a real issue.
Sandy:Yeah, it could be. And then even for I think you were going down this path even for the decision-making right, like the person who is going into the workforce could be like, well, I want to buy, I want to go buy this right, and the one at home is like I don't think we should buy that right now because you know we have other priorities and you know they try to play the power move, like I don't think we should buy that right now because you know we have other priorities and you know they try to play the power move, like well, it's my money.
Terrance:It's my money, I make it.
Sandy:So you can't tell me what to do or how to spend it.
Terrance:And that's when they say I pay the bills, we got bills to pay, and that leads to this big argument and they have a term marriage and they get divorced.
Announcer:There you go.
Terrance:I think and this plays into it too we've talked about you know, being able to empathize with. You know your partners. I think building empathy and understanding plays a big role in being able to be in a relationship that is not just equal but also equitable. You know everything. You know we talk about how relationships, marriages, it's all work, it's continuous. Everything has to be able to see things through their eyes and understand what it is that they're thinking, understand what it is that they're going through, understand what it is when they start talking about their values and recognizing their strengths and weaknesses.
Terrance:That's not something that just happens, it has to be cultivated. That's not something that just happens, it has to be cultivated. And when you go through that process and it's a process that's over time you come to develop that understanding, you gain that ability to empathize with them. So when you have that combination of those two whether it's going out buying a TV or a bike or whatever not that any of that stuff happens here, no, it makes it easier for you to reach that point where, okay, well, we have an understanding. I, I see where this person is coming from and at the same time, it makes it that much more easier to have the conversation, to say, hey, listen, you can get the bike, but you can't get the tv I think it comes down to having the equality when it's important and having the equity when it's kind of like the day-to-day stuff.
Terrance:You should have equity at all times. I think it's quality when it's important equity day-to-day stuff.
Sandy:Well, because, like yeah to your point, you know, I feel like our relationship is both right and they should and most should be. It depends on the situation right, like we have the equality on the decision making, unless one of us decides to forfeit I'm not to forfeit no decisions I have, like you know, I've told you do whatever you want, like, but that wasn't it you can't say I've told you do whatever you want, and say you forfeited it. That's me forfeiting my.
Terrance:you know my Well no because that's you saying no, we've had this conversation before. You can, when we talk about, say what you mean. If you say, do whatever you want, that's the same thing as saying no, I don't want you to do that.
Sandy:No, well, all right, so maybe okay, so I forfeited my decision.
Terrance:So I want to make sure that people understand what you're saying.
Sandy:You get whatever it is that you think is right.
Terrance:Yes, that's different. That's not forfeiting. What that is is saying OK, I understand that this is your area right here, I defer to you because I trust that you're going to make the right decision. That's a big difference than I forfeit.
Sandy:Do whatever you want a big difference, then I forfeit, do whatever you want. I mean, like you know, my 50 percent of the decision making. I, I, you know that's what I mean. I renounce it, go ahead, you got a hundred percent, all you, I think.
Terrance:I think one of the mistakes that people make too is, I think people get attached too much to 50 50 because, yeah, a true relationship is not 50-50. There's going to be some days where it's 30-70, 40-60 because, again, everyone's not going to have their best day every day, right, and if you stuck to that, well, everything has to be 50-50. When that person's not pulling their weight, you're cutting the cord, and that's not how it should be. So, from that perspective, right, and that's not how it should be. So, from that perspective, tying that back into equality and equity and I'll focus on that equality piece We've got to remember a union is something that is there to support and build each other up, and you've got to understand that there are going to be days where it's not 50 50. There might be a day or two where it's zero and a hundred, but that shows the strength of it could even elapse to a week.
Terrance:Yeah, well, it could. We don't want it to do that, but it could. And I think that when we talk about these things and we talk about how to achieve these things, I think it's all about continuous growth and reflection. I think that you don't necessarily wake up and everything's going to be fair, equitable or equal. You got to work at these things and I think that it takes time, and it takes you looking at yourself, because it's easy to look at someone else and say, hey, you suck.
Sandy:You're not pulling your weight.
Terrance:But you've got to look at yourself and reflect on who you are, how you move and how you interact with people, and I think that that takes effort. So let me ask you this question Do you have any strategies that you would employ towards working towards greater equality and equity in relationships?
Sandy:That's a tough one because I feel like our relationship just kind of fell into a groove, but at the same time it took a while.
Terrance:It didn't just fall into a groove.
Sandy:No, but to your point. I don't know if we really sat there and discussed every point which may have helped kind of speed things up a little bit, I guess.
Terrance:But you know, I think we have had conversations, so you know about things as they've kind of arisen, you, know, yes, and I was hoping that you were drawn to 20 years of actually it's more than 20 years now, uh, well, not yet well over 20 years of of marriage, uh, and come up with a strategy that you can shed some light on these youngins out there who are trying to get through, but I think, working I think it's figuring out like where your strengths and weaknesses are and kind of talking about it, not just yours.
Terrance:I think that's part of it.
Sandy:Well, I mean yours, like both of yours.
Terrance:Yeah. Like not just one person's, but yeah, I think the challenge is you know, you have to make sure that you're in it for you and your partner. When you're in a situation where it's all about me, you're never going to get there.
Sandy:And I think that sometimes we particularly now we get caught up with okay, well, I got to get mine and I don't you know, me and my OCD I think that was probably the biggest issue. Right is letting things go. I think that's also kind of important. If you're sitting there running around the house doing all this stuff and your partner is like sitting down and relaxing, Like you can't hold it against them for their decision, because they may need that time.
Sandy:Right, they might need that time, and if you don't want to run around the house, go sit down next to them, exactly.
Terrance:I think that's a perfect way. I do think that is a part of you know, reflection and continuous growth, and I also think that that's a perfect way to actually wrap, wrap all that up into an actual nutshell. So, uh, let's end by me saying this there is a balance between treating everyone the same and recognizing that everyone has unique circumstances and needs as an individual. We talked today about how subtle differences between people can shape a relationship and, in terms of true equality and equity, it's not something that you should just strive for, but it's a journey on continuous growth and reflection, and you need to have understanding. So, as we navigate the ebbs and flows of relationships, we need to consider that the pursuit of equity and equality is not just about destination, but it's about principles that shape the very foundation of love, connection and belongings. So, with that, I'd like to thank everyone for joining us on the Lunch with Sandy podcast. Please be sure to follow us and leave feedback on social media and your favorite podcasting app. Until next time, stay well.
Announcer:Till next time, stay well. That's it for this week's episode of the Lunch with Sandy podcast. Thanks for listening. We'd love to hear your feedback and comments on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter at Lunch with Sandy, and be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us. Thanks again for listening to the Lunch with Sandy podcast.
